Pianophilia

I rather agree with Richard that most pedaling indications are just plain primitive and should be considered no more than a general indication. That said, Whiting shows what is possible and his suggestions provide good effect.

On fingering, I must say some of the worst fingering I've ever seen was in some old Shirmer editions--Whiting's publisher, but not in this particular case! By now, I can finger pretty well on the fly, but still mark fingerings on technical passages as most of us do. Speaking of fingerings, I've yet to find one that will work well for my small hands for Rachmaninoff's "Oriental" - one of his best miniatures.

fleubis wrote:... I've yet to find one that will work well for my small hands for Rachmaninoff's "Oriental" - one of his best miniatures.

Do you mean the "Oriental Sketch" published by Charles Foley in 1938 (see attachment)? Would you let me know, which bars are difficult for you?

alfor wrote:

fleubis wrote:... I've yet to find one that will work well for my small hands for Rachmaninoff's "Oriental" - one of his best miniatures.

Do you mean the "Oriental Sketch" published by Charles Foley in 1938 (see attachment)? Would you let me know, which bars are difficult for you?

Rachmaninoff Oriental Sketch.pdf

Yes, that's the piece. I've been working at this piece for years...someday I'll have it the way I want it. I have never been happy with any fingering for bars 2 - 4, and similar passages. But it just my small hands. As you can see there are not many realistic fingering options. Rachmaninoff had such big hands that I can see how he could easily perform this piece, yet it is quite challenging for my small hands up to tempo.

Dear fleubis,

I would be glad if my humble fingering suggestions - which admittedly demand some
suppleness and a careful use of the right pedal - would work for you!
I recommend a study of Stefan Askenase's fingering of Chopin's Nocturne op. 27 No. 1 (left hand).

Best regards

alfor

alfor wrote:Dear fleubis,

I would be glad if my humble fingering suggestions - which admittedly demand some
suppleness and a careful use of the right pedal - would work for you!
I recommend a study of Stefan Askenase's fingering of Chopin's Nocturne op. 27 No. 1 (left hand).

Best regards

alfor

Rachmaninoff Oriental Sketch fingering.pdf

Very interesting suggestions here, Alfor. I was right with you until you got to the last beat of the first line 3-1-2-3 with the thumb on the B-flat--getting to that next D with the 2nd finger is really tough for me at tempo--but I will try this for a while. The remainder of the fingering you indicated is almost exactly what I now play.

Askenase's fingering is surely one of the best one could do and certainly works well at Larghetto with lots of pedal, but in the Rach, things are quite a bit faster with far less pedal to cover the leaps in the performance I am striving for. Judicious use of the pedal is called for, absolutely. Having over-pedaled in my youth, now in my old age, perhaps I am under pedaling but just adore cleanly connected lines

fleubis wrote:...I was right with you until you got to the last beat of the first line 3-1-2-3 with the thumb on the B-flat--getting to that next D with the 2nd finger is really tough for me at tempo--but I will try this for a while. The remainder of the fingering you indicated is almost exactly what I now play.

You can make things easier in the last beat by keeping the fingering 4-2-1-2
but releasing the 2nd finger from the b flat - which I actually think is preferable
(and will not be audible, provided proper pedaling and a sofly controlled touch, i.e. avoiding
an accent on the b flat). Equally in the left hand you can use the fingering 1-1 at the
end of the third bar, i.e. "jumping" from f to d, which is probably a good fingering
especially because the d has an accent!

What and interesting suggestion about that b-flat in the 3rd bar and I will try it but seems I don't really have any trouble with that 4 2 1 2 fingering. I am a bit confused by your use of "0" which would seem to indicate the thumb, except things get a little confused for me in the first beat of bar 3.

Happily, I seem to have no trouble with any of the left hand passages in this piece....working through all those left-hand etudes seems to have helped some.

I choose my battles very carefully with performance issues like this else I'd never get anything prepared, but this piece is my pet project.

fleubis wrote:What and interesting suggestion about that b-flat in the 3rd bar and I will try it but seems I don't really have any trouble with that 4 2 1 2 fingering. I am a bit confused by your use of "0" which would seem to indicate the thumb, except things get a little confused for me in the first beat of bar 3.

Happily, I seem to have no trouble with any of the left hand passages in this piece....working through all those left-hand etudes seems to have helped some.

I choose my battles very carefully with performance issues like this else I'd never get anything prepared, but this piece is my pet project.

The fingering "0" is quite often found in German editions. It simply means:
"Don't play this note at all" - because it either shall be omitted or, as in this case, is taken over by the other hand." BTW, the thumb is "1" (at least in "continental" fingering; as you surely know the Brits once had their own special fingering, indicating the thumb with a "+" resp. an "x".)

Alfred, I am getting quite an education here. I am totally unfamiliar with continental fingerings let alone the "0" of don't play this note at all.

My musical education never included any scores by English composers, sad to say, which had continental fingering, and have only been vaguely aware of its existence. I recall playing the FItzwilliam VIrginal Book ("Urtext") and other scores of that period, and certainly no 18th or 19th century English music at all -- and this was many decades ago. I am sure everyone on your side of the pond knows how lacking education is in the States, and I guess I'm another not-so-shining example.

So now, I go back and explore playing those "0" notes with the other hand.

It is quite amazing what another set of eyes can do for a pianists problems, thank you Alfred.

alfor wrote:The fingering "0" is quite often found in German editions. It simply means:
"Don't play this note at all" - because it either shall be omitted or, as in this case, is taken over by the other hand."

I knew about the former British fingering, which I hate because it is confusing to me, but I did not know about this German fingering "0". Thank you.