Hatches, Matches & Despatches

[Op. XXXIX]

Presumably, Americans would be off the hook for this tax - as Henry Higgins pointed out, Americans haven't spoken English for years.....

The 'Founding Fathers' would find that absolutely insulting. I'm no fan of America, but American English -the vocabulary of which is slowly replacing UK usage- is going to be dominant, like it or not. No one anymore ever talks about a drunk being 'pissed', and a recent billboard regarding dental issues remarked (for a female) 'I can't believe I'm wearing braces!'

Totally American. So my Saville Row suit with braces is more properly accessorized as suspenders?

What will America next do to us? Deprive us of the language of the BCP? Is the Church of England heading for extinction in an American based Episcopal Church? Will parishes mean nothing anymore? Hollywood will destroy everything we hold most dear.

I love my England so much, America will kill it.

[Timtin]

Tim! Do you write "it's" instead of "its" just for your own tax exemption?

It is a very common mistake unfortunately - twice in this case!

For the last 50+ years, I've been putting an incorrect apostrophe in the word ITS,
when used as a possessive adjective. Also, I now realise that YOURS (sing.), HERS,
OURS, YOURS (pl.), and THEIRS don't have apostrophes either.

[rob]

Tim! Do you write "it's" instead of "its" just for your own tax exemption?

It is a very common mistake unfortunately - twice in this case!

For the last 50+ years, I've been putting an incorrect apostrophe in the word ITS,
when used as a possessive adjective. Also, I now realise that YOURS (sing.), HERS,
OURS, YOURS (pl.), and THEIRS don't have apostrophes either.

Yes, they are all possessive adjectives (often lumped together with possessive pronouns), not nouns, hence no apostrophe. The genitive case ending on nouns, like almost all case endings, disappeared in English as it took over from Norman French as the language of the court. I understood that the "'s" came in after the 16th Century, being an abbreviation of 'his' - eg "Tim his Galliard" became "Tim's Galliard".

I rather think that the apostrophe is dying in any case (adverbs are also facing extinction, being replaced by adjectives). Those that want to keep the apostrophe commonly go slightly too far in adding it incorrectly to these possessive adjectives.

Anyway, happy to be corrected as always if that's not correct.

[Timtin]

I can understand why 'Tim his Galliard' gradually got shortened to 'Tim's Galliard',
but what about 'Tina's Pavane'? Logically, shouldn't it be 'Tina'r Pavane'?
The next time I see public toilets marked 'His' and 'Hers', I'll know that they
possessive pronouns, not possessive adjectives. However, if there is
only a Gents visible, labelled 'His', then uncertainty will prevail.

[rob]

I can understand why 'Tim his Galliard' gradually got shortened to 'Tim's Galliard',
but what about 'Tina's Pavane'? Logically, shouldn't it be 'Tina'r Pavane'?
Next time I see public toilets marked 'His' and 'Hers', I'll know that they
possessive pronouns, not possessive adjectives. However, if there is
only a Gents visible, labelled 'His', then uncertainty will prevail.

I can only suggest that the masculine was considered generic and al inclusive, in the same way that England used to mean the whole of the British Isles. No offence was ever intended by the use of such terms even though to our ears and modern sensitivities both are patronising to say the very least.

Postscript:

I see that Wikipedia rather doubts the origin of the apostrophe s construction I suggested above.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_c ... ive_marker
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_genitive

[WCosand]

I could imagine playing Liszt his recital, including selections from both Der Ring der Nibelungen and Der Ring des Nibelungen; not forgetting the genitivest favorite of me: Isoldens Liebestod.

[passthesalt]

Presumably, Americans would be off the hook for this tax - as Henry Higgins pointed out, Americans haven't spoken English for years.....

The 'Founding Fathers' would find that absolutely insulting.

Now, now .... from what I've read, many of the original New England Yanks had a finely-tuned sense of self-deprecating humor. However, I do agree with your lamentation about the world being homogenized into one big, bland version of a mediocre Hollywood movie. We've certainly been subject to the same influence in the states - too many of us speak with a neutral t.v. news announcer non-accent (although I won't mind watching the extinction of the southwest southern twang, which I'm not sure I ever wholly understood).

A lot of regionalisms are simply disappearing, not just because of the Hollywoodization of the planet, but because people move around so much now - travel is cheap and easy. Jobs push and pull you everywhere. I myself have lived in 15 different states (in one heady 5-year period, I bounced from Chicago to Dallas to Los Angeles to New York to Florida) and I'm not a rare case.

There are pros and cons to this globalization of language, but, like you, I get nostalgic for the days when I could identify someone's home state after a few minutes of conversation.

[klavierelch]

I rather think that the apostrophe is dying in any case.

That's interesting. In Germany (where there is no apostrophe before the genetive "s" (except when the noun ends on a "s") it becomes more and more common to use the apostrophe since a lot of people still find it cool to copy everything Americans do...

[passthesalt]

I rather think that the apostrophe is dying in any case.

That's interesting. In Germany (where there is no apostrophe before the genetive "s" (except when the noun ends on a "s") it becomes more and more common to use the apostrophe since a lot of people still find it cool to copy everything Americans do...

Please! Don't be lead by idiot Americans when it comes to spelling and grammar because most of us never get it right. These days it catches my attention more when a sign uses its and it's correctly than otherwise. And I can't tell you the number of times my kids' teachers sent home announcements and assignments that betray their ignorance of when to use there, their, and they're. My recent big peeve is the overuse of quotation marks when nothing is actually being quoted, especially prevalent on store signs and posters. Who started this practice anyway?

I taught English at Galveston Community College (on the beautiful, oil-soaked Gulf Coast) for a few years (in another lifetime) and got rabid about beating basic English into my classes. It was eye-opening how many kids made it to college with only a rough idea of what standard written English was. I know I sound like a crank schoolmarm when I lament that the barbarians are at the gates, but the evidence around me seems to emphasize it.

[fredbucket]

emphasize

All you need to get now is the proper spelling and your fellow conspirators here at PP will declare you a bona fide English lady.

Regards
Fred