The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Piano, Fortepiano and Harpsichord Music
remy
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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by remy » Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:49 pm

Beethoven Sonatas Czerny Edition 1846 and Liszt Edition 1869

I was surprised to see

Beethoven's Masterpieces; being the entire of his Grand Sonatas for the Piano Forte, edited by his friend and pupil Carl Czerny:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Beethoven's_Maste ... wig_van%29

And the second of the two

Liszt editions of the Beethoven Sonatas, Wolfenbüttel: L. Holle (ca.1869), but with no fingering and only an occasional con sordino or senza sordino:

http://imslp.org/wiki/S%C3%A4mmtliche_C ... wig_van%29


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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by soh choon wee » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:58 am

remy wrote:Beethoven Sonatas Czerny Edition 1846 and Liszt Edition 1869

I was surprised to see

Beethoven's Masterpieces; being the entire of his Grand Sonatas for the Piano Forte, edited by his friend and pupil Carl Czerny:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Beethoven's_Maste ... wig_van%29

And the second of the two

Liszt editions of the Beethoven Sonatas, Wolfenbüttel: L. Holle (ca.1869), but with no fingering and only an occasional con sordino or senza sordino:

http://imslp.org/wiki/S%C3%A4mmtliche_C ... wig_van%29


jeremy

The Liszt appears to be very similar (may I say identical) with the Japan Zen-On edition. I had only a quick look... so someone may perform a closer analysis. That will save us lots of time.
The Liszt is DIFFERENT from the Bowsworth edition, which has pedal and fingering. Wonder who has that.


Well, is there someone who compiled the both ISMLP Beethoven (Czerny) and Beethoven (Liszt).....
I am too lazy to download ......
Thank you very much.

remy
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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by remy » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:40 pm

soh choon wee wrote:
remy wrote:Beethoven Sonatas Czerny Edition 1846 and Liszt Edition 1869

I was surprised to see

Beethoven's Masterpieces; being the entire of his Grand Sonatas for the Piano Forte, edited by his friend and pupil Carl Czerny:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Beethoven's_Maste ... wig_van%29

And the second of the two

Liszt editions of the Beethoven Sonatas, Wolfenbüttel: L. Holle (ca.1869), but with no fingering and only an occasional con sordino or senza sordino:

http://imslp.org/wiki/S%C3%A4mmtliche_C ... wig_van%29


jeremy

The Liszt appears to be very similar (may I say identical) with the Japan Zen-On edition. I had only a quick look... so someone may perform a closer analysis. That will save us lots of time.
The Liszt is DIFFERENT from the Bowsworth edition, which has pedal and fingering.
I found this description, "Edited Franz Liszt. Published by Zen-On, Tokyo. Copyright 1995. One of the earliest editions of the Beethoven piano sonatas, prepared by Franz Liszt. The present edition is a facsimile reprint of the original 1857 edition, with some corrections."

Walter's quote from Alan Walker states that the 1857 edition is very useful for its fingering and pedaling:
WCosand wrote:I recommend Alan Walker's book "Reflections on Liszt" and especially the included essay "Liszt as Editor" which discusses the few things which Liszt did to the sonatas.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4URhKN ... &q&f=false
So there is no fingering in the Zen-On edition, even though it is the 1857 edition?
This is very confusing.

And, if the earliest Bosworth edition is from ca. 1910 (or 1916?), who did the fingering?

And further, why are there two Liszt editions, 1857 and 1869, which are no more helpful with regard to fingering than the Czerny of 1846?


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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by Scriabinoff » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:45 am

Here is the first of the 3 (rather lovely, albeit fairly benign and un-inventive) Bonn sonatas.
Beethoven, LV (edited Dr Felix Guenther) - 3 Sonatas [Bonn], No 1.pdf
Rather curious that these three are usually omitted in many of the 'complete' Beethoven sonatas volumes (scores and recordings).

I know a few years ago an early edition of this surfaced. Here is a later one by Dr. Felix Guenther. It includes opening edition remarks followed by the first of the 3 (the 2nd is more 'known' than the others and there are themes in some movements that re appear in later Beethoven work).

I feel they merit more appreciation and study than they currently do so I am working up all three. This scan is from my personal study/performance copy (decided to share before I started marking it up). Don't think there is a prev upload or sharing of these here or imslp or similar.
*liner notes /background info on them to come //s
Scriabinoff.
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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by Scriabinoff » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:49 pm


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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by remy » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:56 pm

Scriabinoff, thanks very much for this edition of the first of the Bonn, or Elector Sonatas (WoO 47).

Liszt included them in his edition of the Beethoven Sonatas as Op.1 Nos. 1, 2, and 3. There is an IMSLP link in my post above:

viewtopic.php?p=31335#p31335

I seem to remember that Czerny included them in his edition of 1846.

[EDIT: My mistake. I checked the table of contents of Czerny's Beethoven's Masterpieces and he didn't include the three Bonn Sonatas.

v. 1. Sonate pathétique : op. 13 ; Sonata op. 26 ; Sonate pastorale : op. 28 ; Sonata in C minor [op. 27, no. 2] ; Grand sonata : op. 57 ; Les adieux, l'absence et le retour [op. 81a]

v. 2. Sonate no. 1, op. 14 ; Sonate no. 2, op. 14 ; Sonate no. 3, op. 10 ; Sonate op. 22 ; Sonate no. 2 [i.e. no. 1], op. 27 ; Sonate op. 90

v. 3. Sonate op. 10, no. 1 ; Sonate op. 10, no. 2 ; Sonate op. 54 ; Sonate op. 78 ; Sonate op. 79 ; Sonate op. 101

v. 4. Sonate op. 29, no. 1 ; Sonate op. 29, no. 2 ; Sonate op. 29, no. 3 ; Sonate op. 109 ; Sonate op. 110 ; Sonate op. 111

v. 5. Sonate no. 1, op. 2 ; Sonate no. 2, op. 2 ; Sonate no. 3, op. 2 ; Sonate op. 7 ; Sonate op. 53 ; Fantasie op. 77]

Some editors have called them Nos. 33, 34, and 35, which makes them sound like they came after No.32, unfortunately. Maybe Nos. 0.33, 0.66, and 0.99 (or 0.98 if you want to leave room for the unfinished 4th) would be better. ;)


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Last edited by remy on Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by Scriabinoff » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:02 pm

remy wrote:Scriabinoff, thanks very much for this edition of the first of the Bonn, or Elector Sonatas (WoO 47).

Liszt included them in his edition of the Beethoven Sonatas as Op.1 Nos. 1, 2, and 3. There is an IMSLP link in my post above:

viewtopic.php?p=31335#p31335

I seem to remember that Czerny included them in his edition of 1846.

Some editors have called them Nos. 33, 34, and 35, which makes them sound like they came after No.32, unfortunately. Maybe Nos. 0.33, 0.66, and 0.99 (or 0.98 if you want to leave room for the unfinished 4th) would be better. ;)


jeremy
many thanks. I will double back and make sure I didn't miss those editions so I have something to compare them to as well. Just glad I can a more 'modern' edition to our lot.

they are unpretentious and playful little things and so far I'm quite enjoying my rompt through the first, I will likely hit no3 and circle back to no2 later.

Hope to upload both no 2 and no3 in coming days. :D

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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by fleubis » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:12 pm

Scriabinoff, am greatly enjoying that 1st one! Haven't played it for over 40 years.

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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by Scriabinoff » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:12 pm

fleubis wrote:Scriabinoff, am greatly enjoying that 1st one! Haven't played it for over 40 years.
glad to hear it fleubis!!

and here is no 2
Beethoven (ed Guenther) - Sonata for Piano No 2 (Bonn).pdf
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Re: The Music of Ludwig van Beethoven

Post by Scriabinoff » Sun May 29, 2016 7:19 pm

Beethoven (ed Guenther) -Bonn Sonata no. 3.pdf
and number 3 to round out the set 8-)
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